Iain, you are my favourite Old Fart by far!!! I love it when you are so passionate.
Thanks Alex for a marvelous session. Isn’t it curious that Iain hasn’t had effects from weed or psychedelics. I’ve had several people like that whom I’ve served Aya to. They were all highly intellectual, either doctors or military personnel, and they only “broke through” with significantly high doses and when they had “given up” on the experience (ie. relinquished control/stopped with expectations). Fascinating!
What a wonderful person Ian McGilchrist is! Thank you for having another conversation with him.
I too, have been having thoughts about the term liberal. It seems that people connect the words liberal with socially liberal. In a similar way the words capitalism and democracy are conflated. Democracy does not automatically go with capitalism. What we see is that the economic system, as a variable, has been liberalized, while the social liberalism is being quashed. We have a way overly active economic liberal capitalism at work and an ailing democracy. Capitalism has jumped the guard rails that democracy was unable to create in order to harness and direct the overwhelming (apparently) power of capitalism. (I bet there is a quadrant diagram about this somewhere ;-))
I must trust deep down that social liberalism will and is rising again. How soon? Who knows? Stick around. Plants break through concrete all the time.
I do believe that conversations like this one are a big part of helping things rebalance, even as it is part of the necessary chaos. Thank you to Ali, Ian and all who are participating in and helping us all through this particular passage of time and space. The rapids are pretty big!!
I love Dr. McGilchrist’s work, and I use it often. The Left Brain builds towers; this is its fundamental purpose. I have traced its pattern through 5000+ years of history. The discovery? Three dominant towers the left brain has constructed in our world today—a system I call The Left Brain Trinity. This framework offers a crucial new perspective. Explore the full argument in my newly published essay. Just published. https://wendywilliamson.substack.com/p/the-left-brain-trinity
Amazing conversation! I’m totally into my TMWT personal journey (reached the 28th chapter after 2 years… not a speedy journey, though) and starting to get in touch with your activities, Alexander (which I find fascinating as well). And the feeling I get is that something is moving, that different people (not only scholars or scientists) are moving in the same direction (besides you two, also M. D. Segall, B. Kastrup and so on and, very, very humbling, myself, from a different perspective, trying also to help people get in touch of what this Weltanschauung means experientially): the fact is that we don’t exactly know where we are heading, but the direction is indeed the right one! Thank you!
I am not well read academically but Iain's book TMWT is littered with references to other thinkers and scientists (not necessarily or ideally different things!) which feels a bit like being at the centre of an exploding body. So much of what he writes feels viscerally true and for me he represents one of the most important thinkers of our time.
Perhaps one of the most important aspects is the acknowledgement and embracing of uncertainty which could be seen as the 'pull' required to draw us back into connection as we find the betweenness of knowing and not knowing.
This was such a wonderful conversation! Thank you, Alexander and Iain.
It is encouraging to sense the hope that you both have, especially in this complex time we are all living through. Yes, resistance and tension are not to be overcome, but set in relationship with. This point alone can help us transform our relationship with nature and our “self.” You are both inspirational. Thank you!!
"Aristotle is the father of the philosophically correct primacy-of-existence concept -- a concept fully validated by Rand and Peikoff in the late 20th century. Plato is the father of the philosophically false primacy-of-consciousness concept -- a concept disastrously advanced by Augustine, Hobbes, Descartes, Hume, Kant, and Hegel. ...Totalitarian-trending governments and their destructive politicians, armed bureaucrats, and parasitical elites require a dishonest, primacy-of-consciousness philosophy to advance."
is there any connection between these ideas and those of Eastern Orthodox christian theologian David Bentley Hart, (also a self described "Vedantic Christian") who wrote that the Sanskrit "Existence-Consciousness-Bliss" is a phrase he has found to most fully describe theism throughout the world?
(I know it doesn't necessarily add anything, but perhaps it's interesting to consider that he is fluent in 16 languages and conversant in 16 more!)
The understanding is that an unconscious existence makes no sense. So it's not "consciousness" alone nor "existence" alone but Sat-Chit. And suffering, in this view, is only possible with a limited existence and limited consciousness; therefore infinite Existence-Consciousness would be of the nature of bliss - hence, Sat-Chit-Ananda, or Existence-Consciousness-Bliss.
Sounds Good to me Don! My understanding is that "Consciousness" is becoming increasingly, scientifically identified as the 5th Force of Nature:
"The "Zon constant k" (Consciousness) has not yet been determined. But, k would be the fifth and unifying universal constant: unifying the relativistic, macroscopic universal constants of G (gravity) and c (velocity of light) with the quantum, submicroscopic universal constants of k (Boltzmann) and h (Planck). Perhaps k manifests itself in some sort of unifying ratio with the other four universal constants, such as k: Gc/kh. The Zon constant would relate energy, mass, gravity, and their velocities to the flow of time toward decreasing entropy, not toward increasing entropy. ...Universal constants, including the quantum cosmological constant, ultimately arise from a deep, compelling symmetry or geometry controlled by conscious beings. The Zon constant fixes the values of all other constants.
Except for consciousness, gravity is the weakest yet most pervasive force in nature. Indeed, gravity controls universal motion. But, the fifth force of nature -- human consciousness -- is the grand-unifying force controlling all existence. Conscious force is more subtle to specific measurement and mathematical quantification than gravity. Still, consciousness is the most noticeable force on planet Earth. Moreover, consciousness is the only force that can alter the otherwise predestined courses of the other four forces of nature: gravitational, electromagnetic, weak nuclear, strong nuclear. ...Consciousness is the force that unifies all forces and heals the seeming breaches of nature caused by quantum "uncertainties".
As a law of nature expressed by the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, facts asserted as truth are never certain. But, principles contextually determined through integrated honesty are always certain. Thus, for example, one can have certainty about the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle without paradox or contradiction: (1) Metaphysically one can be certain that any particle always has an exact position and momentum at any exact time. But, epistemologically one can be certain that exact position and momentum cannot be simultaneously measured...at least not directly. (2) Measurements can be validly done in Euclidean/Galilean/Newtonian coordinate systems or in noneuclidean/relativistic/quantum-mechanical systems, depending on the object measured and the accuracy desired. And finally, (3) the indeterminate and probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics does not negate the laws of identity, noncontradiction, or cause and effect. The decay of radioactive atoms, for example, are both indeterminate and probabilistic. But, each decay has an identifiable, noncontradictory cause. ...That means Heracleitus, Plato, and Kant are out; Parmenides, Aristotle, and Rand are in.
As a side note important later: Plato is the father of organized deception through "noble" lies -- the father of purposely dishonest government and science. Aristotle not only is the father of logic, science, and biology, but is the father of rational metaphysics and epistemology. Plato subjugated conscious life to higher mystical powers. Aristotle exalted conscious life on Earth as the highest value. Portions of Aristotle's ethics and politics, however, remained under Plato's influence, thus, are fallacious. ...Philosophically, Plato and Kant are mankind's villains, Aristotle and Rand are mankind's heroes. "
My understanding about the latest (last 10-15 years or so) musings on consciousness in science is that as a fundamental, it's not human, but actually Consciousness itself, one with Existence, that is seen as fundamental the universe, whether or not humans are present.
And the other essential difference is that the other 4 forces are abstract conceptualizations best on quantitative measurements, whereas consciousness is fundamentally Self aware. Sri Aurobindo actually defines Conscious-Force (in common with the Tantric tradition in general, which never sees Consciousness as independent of Shakti, translated variously as Force or Energy, as "a self-aware power of Existence.
I'm halfway through the books (TMWT) and finding that the Spotify podcast is really helping make it more accessible and understandable. There is little out there that comes close to the insights in this line of enquiry, the ideas you have are truly interdisciplinary and that explains (not excuses) why what you make fairly obvious, has not been said before.
It took me decades to become an anti-philosopher properly but, this writing gives me new tools beyond the literary criticism and pragmatic distance that the death of philosophy in the late 20th Century left us with, so unhealthily.
Sir Iain, you are my favorite thinker, yet I’m weary of defending you to feminists. Will you please clarify your perspective so they can break through that intellectual barrier and recognize the bigger truth you’ve seen—that we women can step over the competitive and combative stage of reconciling gender inequity and step straight into equality by a change of our own self concept. We eed not attempt to alter others’ attitudes toward women, but merely accept our innate equality and act from it at all times. Perfect antidote, anddit gets around decades more of fightingvand distrust. concept. Not having to alter . group I once depended upon for protection and support, but have grown beyond.
One question I have though, is - is this turn back to “christianity” always going to be the shadow version of christianity that is responsible for immense amounts of homophobia, colonization and destruction. It’s very hard for me square apart any kind of “return” to something where I haven’t seen any much mending of fences, apologizes or repair. Any thoughts on how to square these concepts? Unless a new christianity is born, a mature, christianity that actually accepts all people and doesn’t invalidate indigenous, shamanistic or other religions I just feel confused.
Iain, you are my favourite Old Fart by far!!! I love it when you are so passionate.
Thanks Alex for a marvelous session. Isn’t it curious that Iain hasn’t had effects from weed or psychedelics. I’ve had several people like that whom I’ve served Aya to. They were all highly intellectual, either doctors or military personnel, and they only “broke through” with significantly high doses and when they had “given up” on the experience (ie. relinquished control/stopped with expectations). Fascinating!
What a wonderful person Ian McGilchrist is! Thank you for having another conversation with him.
I too, have been having thoughts about the term liberal. It seems that people connect the words liberal with socially liberal. In a similar way the words capitalism and democracy are conflated. Democracy does not automatically go with capitalism. What we see is that the economic system, as a variable, has been liberalized, while the social liberalism is being quashed. We have a way overly active economic liberal capitalism at work and an ailing democracy. Capitalism has jumped the guard rails that democracy was unable to create in order to harness and direct the overwhelming (apparently) power of capitalism. (I bet there is a quadrant diagram about this somewhere ;-))
I must trust deep down that social liberalism will and is rising again. How soon? Who knows? Stick around. Plants break through concrete all the time.
I do believe that conversations like this one are a big part of helping things rebalance, even as it is part of the necessary chaos. Thank you to Ali, Ian and all who are participating in and helping us all through this particular passage of time and space. The rapids are pretty big!!
This is my definition of love. The vitality that overcomes entropy. Life needs resistance, balance, harmony.
I love Dr. McGilchrist’s work, and I use it often. The Left Brain builds towers; this is its fundamental purpose. I have traced its pattern through 5000+ years of history. The discovery? Three dominant towers the left brain has constructed in our world today—a system I call The Left Brain Trinity. This framework offers a crucial new perspective. Explore the full argument in my newly published essay. Just published. https://wendywilliamson.substack.com/p/the-left-brain-trinity
Amazing conversation! I’m totally into my TMWT personal journey (reached the 28th chapter after 2 years… not a speedy journey, though) and starting to get in touch with your activities, Alexander (which I find fascinating as well). And the feeling I get is that something is moving, that different people (not only scholars or scientists) are moving in the same direction (besides you two, also M. D. Segall, B. Kastrup and so on and, very, very humbling, myself, from a different perspective, trying also to help people get in touch of what this Weltanschauung means experientially): the fact is that we don’t exactly know where we are heading, but the direction is indeed the right one! Thank you!
I am not well read academically but Iain's book TMWT is littered with references to other thinkers and scientists (not necessarily or ideally different things!) which feels a bit like being at the centre of an exploding body. So much of what he writes feels viscerally true and for me he represents one of the most important thinkers of our time.
Perhaps one of the most important aspects is the acknowledgement and embracing of uncertainty which could be seen as the 'pull' required to draw us back into connection as we find the betweenness of knowing and not knowing.
Thanks for a great session.
This was such a wonderful conversation! Thank you, Alexander and Iain.
It is encouraging to sense the hope that you both have, especially in this complex time we are all living through. Yes, resistance and tension are not to be overcome, but set in relationship with. This point alone can help us transform our relationship with nature and our “self.” You are both inspirational. Thank you!!
LOVE IT! SHARE IT!
Existence is primary, not Consciousness.
"Aristotle is the father of the philosophically correct primacy-of-existence concept -- a concept fully validated by Rand and Peikoff in the late 20th century. Plato is the father of the philosophically false primacy-of-consciousness concept -- a concept disastrously advanced by Augustine, Hobbes, Descartes, Hume, Kant, and Hegel. ...Totalitarian-trending governments and their destructive politicians, armed bureaucrats, and parasitical elites require a dishonest, primacy-of-consciousness philosophy to advance."
is there any connection between these ideas and those of Eastern Orthodox christian theologian David Bentley Hart, (also a self described "Vedantic Christian") who wrote that the Sanskrit "Existence-Consciousness-Bliss" is a phrase he has found to most fully describe theism throughout the world?
(I know it doesn't necessarily add anything, but perhaps it's interesting to consider that he is fluent in 16 languages and conversant in 16 more!)
The understanding is that an unconscious existence makes no sense. So it's not "consciousness" alone nor "existence" alone but Sat-Chit. And suffering, in this view, is only possible with a limited existence and limited consciousness; therefore infinite Existence-Consciousness would be of the nature of bliss - hence, Sat-Chit-Ananda, or Existence-Consciousness-Bliss.
Sounds Good to me Don! My understanding is that "Consciousness" is becoming increasingly, scientifically identified as the 5th Force of Nature:
"The "Zon constant k" (Consciousness) has not yet been determined. But, k would be the fifth and unifying universal constant: unifying the relativistic, macroscopic universal constants of G (gravity) and c (velocity of light) with the quantum, submicroscopic universal constants of k (Boltzmann) and h (Planck). Perhaps k manifests itself in some sort of unifying ratio with the other four universal constants, such as k: Gc/kh. The Zon constant would relate energy, mass, gravity, and their velocities to the flow of time toward decreasing entropy, not toward increasing entropy. ...Universal constants, including the quantum cosmological constant, ultimately arise from a deep, compelling symmetry or geometry controlled by conscious beings. The Zon constant fixes the values of all other constants.
Except for consciousness, gravity is the weakest yet most pervasive force in nature. Indeed, gravity controls universal motion. But, the fifth force of nature -- human consciousness -- is the grand-unifying force controlling all existence. Conscious force is more subtle to specific measurement and mathematical quantification than gravity. Still, consciousness is the most noticeable force on planet Earth. Moreover, consciousness is the only force that can alter the otherwise predestined courses of the other four forces of nature: gravitational, electromagnetic, weak nuclear, strong nuclear. ...Consciousness is the force that unifies all forces and heals the seeming breaches of nature caused by quantum "uncertainties".
As a law of nature expressed by the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, facts asserted as truth are never certain. But, principles contextually determined through integrated honesty are always certain. Thus, for example, one can have certainty about the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle without paradox or contradiction: (1) Metaphysically one can be certain that any particle always has an exact position and momentum at any exact time. But, epistemologically one can be certain that exact position and momentum cannot be simultaneously measured...at least not directly. (2) Measurements can be validly done in Euclidean/Galilean/Newtonian coordinate systems or in noneuclidean/relativistic/quantum-mechanical systems, depending on the object measured and the accuracy desired. And finally, (3) the indeterminate and probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics does not negate the laws of identity, noncontradiction, or cause and effect. The decay of radioactive atoms, for example, are both indeterminate and probabilistic. But, each decay has an identifiable, noncontradictory cause. ...That means Heracleitus, Plato, and Kant are out; Parmenides, Aristotle, and Rand are in.
As a side note important later: Plato is the father of organized deception through "noble" lies -- the father of purposely dishonest government and science. Aristotle not only is the father of logic, science, and biology, but is the father of rational metaphysics and epistemology. Plato subjugated conscious life to higher mystical powers. Aristotle exalted conscious life on Earth as the highest value. Portions of Aristotle's ethics and politics, however, remained under Plato's influence, thus, are fallacious. ...Philosophically, Plato and Kant are mankind's villains, Aristotle and Rand are mankind's heroes. "
Thanks for your thoughts, James.
My understanding about the latest (last 10-15 years or so) musings on consciousness in science is that as a fundamental, it's not human, but actually Consciousness itself, one with Existence, that is seen as fundamental the universe, whether or not humans are present.
And the other essential difference is that the other 4 forces are abstract conceptualizations best on quantitative measurements, whereas consciousness is fundamentally Self aware. Sri Aurobindo actually defines Conscious-Force (in common with the Tantric tradition in general, which never sees Consciousness as independent of Shakti, translated variously as Force or Energy, as "a self-aware power of Existence.
Thanks for sharing this!
Great conversation. Ian puts things right in our minds. Bless you all.
I'm halfway through the books (TMWT) and finding that the Spotify podcast is really helping make it more accessible and understandable. There is little out there that comes close to the insights in this line of enquiry, the ideas you have are truly interdisciplinary and that explains (not excuses) why what you make fairly obvious, has not been said before.
It took me decades to become an anti-philosopher properly but, this writing gives me new tools beyond the literary criticism and pragmatic distance that the death of philosophy in the late 20th Century left us with, so unhealthily.
Sir Iain, you are my favorite thinker, yet I’m weary of defending you to feminists. Will you please clarify your perspective so they can break through that intellectual barrier and recognize the bigger truth you’ve seen—that we women can step over the competitive and combative stage of reconciling gender inequity and step straight into equality by a change of our own self concept. We eed not attempt to alter others’ attitudes toward women, but merely accept our innate equality and act from it at all times. Perfect antidote, anddit gets around decades more of fightingvand distrust. concept. Not having to alter . group I once depended upon for protection and support, but have grown beyond.
AI== losing our imagination, sell it
The left/right brain model is outdated for decades now. Brain cells are in your heart and your gut brain directly affects with emotion/feeling world.
One question I have though, is - is this turn back to “christianity” always going to be the shadow version of christianity that is responsible for immense amounts of homophobia, colonization and destruction. It’s very hard for me square apart any kind of “return” to something where I haven’t seen any much mending of fences, apologizes or repair. Any thoughts on how to square these concepts? Unless a new christianity is born, a mature, christianity that actually accepts all people and doesn’t invalidate indigenous, shamanistic or other religions I just feel confused.